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All right, everyone. So this is, I think, the second time that this has happened — because I’m talking to previous guests who are coming back with new, exciting stories. And it’s so fun to get to follow along with someone’s journey and their sexual expression, and new things that happen, or shifts that happen.

So we have this amazing treat. Arana is back, and she has new experiences, new stories to share. I’m very grateful that [00:01:00] she’s here and is willing to continue to share — because I think it’s super cool. She inspires me and makes me think about things just for myself, so I hope she has the same effect on you.

Thank you so much for coming back.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was so much fun being on the show last time. And when we talked last time, you were like, “When this happens, you have to tell me, so we can have you on again.”

So it happened. So yeah, here we are.

It’s so epic. I love it. So when we talked last time — remind me where you were in the process of making this happen. I feel like you were definitely thinking about it, and you had talked to someone who had done it, and you knew there was some coordination involved.

Yeah.

So maybe we should say what it is.

Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. Yes. So there will be a link in the show notes for the previous episode that Arana was on, which you should definitely go listen to if you haven’t, because lots of good stories. But what we’re talking about is [00:02:00] — at that time… well, why don’t you tell us your story.

Yeah. So in that last episode, you talked with me and my metamour, and we talked about this idea of a gang bang coming up. I think in that whole thread, we also talked about the experience of being in a glory hole at the convention. And I was thinking about doing a gang bang, and I had spoken to one of my partners, and they were starting to put it together. I think that’s where we were last time we talked.

Mm-hmm.

And — well, if not, I talked to my partner about it and he put it together. That is the way that went. And it happened back in September. So that happened in September, and it was a really great experience, and so now I’m here to tell everybody about it.

Yeah, I love that. I almost want to add some context too, for anyone who might be coming to this and doesn’t know you.

Yeah.

I know Arana personally, have known her for quite some time. She is a very intelligent, very articulate human being. I’ve seen her in a professional space [00:03:00] do really impressive things and coordinate conversations between stakeholders for different projects. She’s just a very talented person. And I just want to throw that in there for context — for anyone who might be like, “Who is the type of person who would choose to create a gang bang experience?” If it possibly surprises you that it might be somebody who’s a very successful, articulate, intelligent, multifaceted, very talented individual — surprise, she is that person. And I love that.

Yeah. I mean, I run two businesses. I’m writing a book in the business world. I facilitate and project manage and do organizational development. I am — I’m your professional woman next door. That is the thing to know. You might have met me. Yeah.

Cool. Okay. So like — sorry, I had to just interject that in there.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So going back — okay. [00:04:00] You said your partner helped coordinate this for you?

Yes.

Like, okay.

Yes. One of my partners. I should clarify, for those who aren’t gonna listen to the other one, I’m polyamorous. And I consider myself a relationship anarchist and a solo polyamorous. So one of my partners put this together for me. He had been — we’re gonna call him G, for the sake of brevity. He had been putting together a birthday celebration for my metamour, who was Mesh, who was on the last show with us. And that involved a weekend away in a cabin with three — including them, three of her favorite partners.

And I remember talking to my partner, talking to G, being like, “Okay, so I also have been telling you I want this thing for a while, and I really want someone else to organize it and not to be the person who organizes it.” It feels like — the emotional aspects of this, it felt like a lot to ask of people. I generally get involved with primarily cis het white men. That’s primarily my attraction. Not — there’s exceptions, but that’s generally the direction I go. [00:05:00] And, you know, I have a penchant for penetration, so that’s really like my jam — to be penetrated. And I just felt like a lot to ask. Cis het white men get a little squirrely around other men.

That’s — oh yeah. Okay, gotcha.

Yeah. Sometimes I get a little squirrely. Now I’m dating several who are more comfortable. But I come from — my history is that people told me I was too much, that I asked too much, that I wanted too much, that I was a lot to deal with. Right? Like, that’s a message I’ve gotten in my life. And I am a lot for some people, but I’m not too much. And I’m a big fan of: if I’m too much, go find less.

Yeah.

If you don’t like this package, go find some other package. Right? And —

I’m not for you, and that’s okay.

That’s okay. But I’m not gonna change who I am to accommodate somebody else in my life. And I don’t want them to change who they are either. And if my muchness disregulates somebody, then leave.

Yeah.

Go get regulated. But because of that message [00:06:00] that’s been given to me my whole life, it just felt like a lot. And I was really uncomfortable doing the organizing and the asking and the putting it together. And there’s something to be said for somebody else putting this together for you, and then you getting to just show up and experience it instead of having to do all the work.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I had done some research. There’s a woman who’s in the sex working industry — I think she’s in porn. She did a whole article on her experience and what it took, and she had a lot more people involved than I was looking to have involved. She had like 30 to 50 — something insane like that. That was a lot. And I didn’t really want it with strangers. I wanted it with people I knew — at least for my first one. Because, foreshadowing spoilers, I definitely want to do it again. But coming into it, it was just a lot. It just felt hard to ask for.

Mm-hmm.

So he agreed to put it together for me, and he set up a group chat. Signal — pro tip, I definitely recommend Signal as a chatting app. He put together a group chat that did not include me. He [00:07:00] asked if I wanted to be included. I said no, I want you all to talk about it and discuss it and figure it out, and for me to just show up.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so he did that. And it ended up being him, two other regular partners of mine, and three friends with benefits of mine.

Okay.

And I’m gonna use “friends with benefits” as not the “oh yeah, that’s all we get together for is sex” — we’re like really good friends who occasionally play, as opposed to play partners who occasionally friend. Like, they are meaningful people in my life. So it was all people that were really meaningful. It ended up being four cis het men, one woman with a strap-on, and one non-binary partner of mine with a biological penis. So that’s who was involved. But they’re all people that I really love and care for, and who love and care for me.

Mm-hmm. That was a lot. I said a lot. Your turn.

No, that was not a lot. That was fantastic. This is really — that’s great. So I guess, like, to whatever degree you’re comfortable, what was the setting for this?

My own home.

Oh, that’s so [00:08:00] cool.

Yeah.

Okay. So did you — did they show up and you were already there, or did you kind of go away and they came…

I was there. I cleaned the house. Right? ’Cause I knew they were coming to my house. There were some questions about — you know, we had to figure out dates. When you’re in a polyamorous life, finding a date is significantly challenging. Right? And so we started — the planning started in July, and we didn’t make this happen until the end of September. So that gives you an idea of how long it took to put together.

Yeah, fair enough.

But of course, I got questions occasionally. “Can we use your house? What’s a good weekend when you have the house to yourself?” — that sort of thing. You know, Mesh and I are roommates, so she had to decide where she was gonna be that night. I have kids, and they were with their dad that weekend.

Yeah.

That was critical.

Yeah.

Yes, folks, I have kids. Almost grown and out of the house. So another important detail.

Yep. And then I’ve been added to that thread, that group thread, since then. I’ve been able to go back and — you know, we get to share pictures and things like that on there.

And there was a lot of [00:09:00] conversation about how do we do this, right? They also had to work through all of their own hangups and “how are we gonna do this together, and how are we gonna make this a great experience for her, and also not get freaked out ourselves,” right? And they are — all of the people that were there are either metamours or partners themselves.

Mm-hmm. Gotcha.

So these are all people who also knew each other very well. And it made it really caring and loving and beautiful on top of —

Yeah.

— scandalous and salacious, right?

Yeah. No, I mean, to me the combination is what makes it so amazing. Like, this person that we love wants the salacious, naughty experience, and we’re gonna all, like, “go team, make this happen for her. Okay, let’s work together.” I love that. That is the coolest thing ever.

Yeah. It was — so I wrote about it on FetLife, and if you want to give people my FetLife link on your show notes, they can certainly connect with me there. I don’t friend [00:10:00] people I don’t know in person, so they’re certainly welcome to follow me, and they can attempt to converse with me. But if their conversation is “Hey, I want to be in your gang bang,” it ain’t gonna happen.

Yeah. Right, right.

I look for meaningful connections, and then I have physical connections — not the other way around. So, but you’re certainly welcome to link it in if people want to take a look at it, ’cause I made that piece of it public.

I was held in a place where I could fully be myself in the ways that I find joy. By — what was that? — one, two, three, four, five, six people. Right? Who just only wanted my joy and happiness, and were also taking care of each other. So I didn’t have to come up out of that space to take care of anybody or to make sure anybody was okay. Everybody was there ’cause they wanted to be. They took care of me. They took care of each other. In fact, even their other partners made me a cake. Like, the metamours all got together — metamour being the lovers of my lovers, right? So the other partners of people here got together in their own group thread and were like, “Okay, how are we gonna also add to [00:11:00] this?”

Oh, yeah.

And they insisted on a cake, and they did a little reconnaissance to find out what my favorite cake was. And one of them made me a banner for the cake that said “My First Gang Bang.” It was a “Happy First Gang Bang” on the banner. It was amazing. So it wasn’t just the six people there, but it was also the additional people that are around them contributing to this experience and generally just being joyful for me to get to do it.

Yeah. And be part of it.

And then the following day we all went to one of my partners — we went to his house, and he and his partner did a breakfast, and everybody showed up for breakfast, and we got to, like, decompress and debrief and talk about it — with additional humans that weren’t there. And it was really amazing.

That is — that’s incredible. This sounds miraculous. There’s so much about this that I love. Because I know for me — you know, there’s those moments when, if you’re in some type of a non-monogamous interaction and there’s, like, any question about “is everybody [00:12:00] that’s involved in this okay, are we sure they’re okay” — for those metamours to come together and be like, “Let’s just demonstratively love on Arana, to give her just that much more reassurance that we’re all supportive of this.”

Yep.

And so that you just get to drop into it and experience it, and any of those thoughts that you might’ve had just dispelled by the fact that they all showed up to celebrate and participate. That’s the coolest thing ever. I love that so much.

Yeah, it was really cool. It was really cool. So emotionally, it was a very safe and warm and kind of sweet space to be.

Yeah, I can imagine. That’s so cool.

Physically, we found the limits of my stamina.

Oh, well — so let me ask you about that. So when you hit that point, was there, like, an aftermath of, “I don’t know — how was that?”

So that article that I [00:13:00] read — she talks about that the first thing, you’re like a little nervous, just a little unsure, and then you move into what she called “God mode.” Look at how much I’m taking, look at what I’m doing, look at how much I’m experiencing. So you get into this zone of, like, “I’m the bomb.” Right? Like, that happens. And then your body starts to wane, and there’s this moment of — “coping” would be what she called it. And I had about an hour of that at the end, where I was like, “I think I’m done. Maybe I’m not done. No, I’m not done yet, but soon.” Right? That sort of feeling.

But it took six people eight hours to wear me out. It was an eight-hour night. And when I finally called it, I was like, “I think I’m done.” And my partner G, he’s like, “Okay, that was it. She called it.” And everybody went to bed. You know, lots of people stayed over. Everybody went to bed, and we called it a night.

And I was out of commission the next day. You know, I was swollen — as women’s bodies do. [00:14:00] I got a little swollen and a little tender. And by the second day I was able to have sex again. And then by the third day, it was all back to normal. So it was like a 24-hour window of “I think I’m still done” afterwards.

But I was falling asleep on my feet by the time we were done. I was sore and tender and swollen and tired. And I went as far as my body would take me. And there were six of them, so they got breaks more than I did, occasionally. We took, like, a couple of water and food breaks. I had somebody really making sure I was drinking water the whole time.

Oh, that’s good.

A couple of water and food breaks. There’s this really funny picture of us all around the island where we had a bunch of charcuterie set up, eating. But I didn’t actually ask for a break when I asked for food, so my partner kept me going while I was eating.

That’s nice.

Those sorts of things. Yeah, so that was fun.

Well, I guess too — I know you shared on the last episode that you have kind of a free-use kink, right?

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So did that kind of come into — [00:15:00] I’m thinking about the eating experience, where you’re like, “I’m getting some food, but I’m still fucking…”

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was 100% part of that experience for me, that I was available for use for anybody who wanted to. Now, they were still making sure I was getting all the experiences that I wanted out of it, but they absolutely were taking liberties, as it were.

Yeah.

We did — I have like a list of things that happened sexually. Let’s see. I had a fishnet body suit on that got torn off of me. I gave head to somebody while kissing someone — that was new.

Oh. How did you even do that?

There’s — the non-binary person that was there is also dating one of my partners. And so we just got in on that, and the primary focus for them was kissing me, and my primary focus was giving head, and we just sort of worked it out. And it was fun, and really erotic for the other person too.

I also got head while two people were kissing, which [00:16:00] is fun. That happened actually while I was getting face fucked. Because so much sensation — I can’t even begin to tell you how much sensation happened. Let’s see. I did DP with two bio penises. While other people were leveraging my face and hands for their own pleasure. I did DP with a penis and a dildo. I did DP with a penis and fingers. There was a lot of that going on. I gave head while getting fucked a bunch. Like, there’s lots of Eiffel Towers and three-way play going on. I felt like I was in every position I could be in, in every spot of my house.

We definitely christened the couch. We did the quintessential porn thing where you have, like, the ring of penises you’re giving head to.

Oh, okay. Nice.

And we did also a train down the couch — like, all the people sat on the couch, and I fucked one and then I got up and fucked another, and then I got up and fucked another down the couch. That was a lot of fun. [00:17:00]

Okay.

And there was a lot of laughter involved in all of this. You know, I think one of the things we miss in porn is that they know how to get the right camera angles in the right positions to make things work. DP with two penises is actually really hard to make happen. It’s really difficult — the angles and mechanics and geometry of it all. And — I don’t know if I mentioned this last time, but I have incredibly strong Kegels. I squeeze people out of me all the time. And it is hard to stay put. And if you’ve got two going at the same time at the weird angles that don’t make you get the great depth, it is harder to stay put. And it was still a really fantastic experience. Something I would definitely do again, if somebody’s up for making the mechanics work.

So it’s just lots of really fun things. And I have some really great photographs from it. I have some in the mail on the way, so I can hang them on my wall. Generally, the pictures that I was like “these are the ones I want to print” are pictures of, like, my face — and nobody’s sexual body [00:18:00] parts are in the picture, but it’s like my face mid-orgasm. But you can sort of see what’s happening around me. And it was such a good image of what I was experiencing in that moment, that I was like, “No, that goes on the wall.” And it’s erotic, as opposed to —

Right.

— “in your face, here’s my vagina.”

Right. It’s not that kind of picture. It’s clearly a moment in time that’s very sensual and erotic, but it doesn’t give away too much of what’s going on.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You get the essence of what’s happened.

I get the essence. Yeah. So there were photographs happening the whole time. One of my partners had a little video camera going on, so there were some videos taken too. And I did put my selection of my 10 favorite pictures up on FetLife too.

Yeah. And I’m sure — I mean, so now are you, like, walking around your house and have this new sort of connection with the entire space?

You know, I don’t connect to spaces that way.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Here’s some of the changes I’ve seen, actually. There’s a whole ton of things I [00:19:00] learned. The change in space doesn’t — like, every now and again I’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I did that thing on that couch there.” And it’s a fun memory that pops up, but I don’t connect to space. I connect to humans.

And so, you know, I go occasionally to parties that are sex parties. And all of the people that were at the gang bang, I would have loved to have had them in multiple combinations at any of these parties before the gang bang. But after the gang bang is when they actually started initiating them at parties. And so I think for them, some stuff changed too. Like, they are more comfortable with each other and they are willing to engage with me in combination at these settings in ways that they wouldn’t have in the past.

Yeah.

In fact, since then, the male-identifying people in that group have started their own — like, “We should have a guys’ group, where we can talk about things and lean on each other and be friends,” and that sort of thing. So they’ve created a new space [00:20:00] since then too, for themselves, which is pretty awesome.

Yeah. Because men don’t have that, like, they do.

No, they don’t. I’m sitting here thinking, like, that’s really rare — and how amazing that a gang bang created that. ’Cause I believe that our sexual energy is creative, and lots of things can spring out of it, not just, like, babies. Right? And so that’s amazing to me, that there was just this, like, ground zero of this epic sexual energy that birthed something that’s really rare, which is, like, male bonding that is not common. So yeah. Look at you.

Yeah. And so they’re absolutely having some more bonding experiences. I mean, often their bonding experiences are on or with the women they’re with, but they are doing it. And at least one person in the group is really — maybe two are really for it. And so that’s helping drive the energy. You know, they want community in this space of polyamory and sexual freedom that most people get from things like churches or family.

Right, right.

[00:21:00] And we still want that community in this space too. So they’re creating community. So it’s pretty cool.

Yeah, that’s extremely cool.

Yeah. But personally, I learned a whole lot about myself just in the moment. I highly recommend, if you’re gonna do this, that you stretch beforehand. Your muscles are gonna take a beating, and you’re gonna need them. So definitely do some yoga or some stretching in advance. We, in fact, took a stretch break in the middle, ’cause my hamstrings were starting to yell at me. So we did a stretch break to get those loosened up.

I had a really delightful — the one woman who was there, she and I have been friends for a really long time. We had a really delightful, like, connection moment in the middle of it. She’s like, “I’m just so happy to be part of this with you, and so glad that our friendship has gotten here.” And we had like a little weepy lovey moment while we were stretching in the middle of everything.

Hydration does matter, especially if you’re a squirter. Drink lots of fluids. I would recommend, like, a Liquid IV that you’re sort of sipping on throughout the evening. ’Cause it does help.

Trying to see, I had made some notes about this. [00:22:00] Usually gang bangs are with strangers, but I gotta tell you, doing it with people that you know and love, and that love you, is — it’s something monumental to have such a community of people hold you in a space where it’s often so vulnerable, and really help you experience your own sexuality and pop into something that’s new for you. It’s pretty awesome. And so I’d recommend, if you’re gonna do this, you at least have some friends involved. At the very least, somebody who’s watching out for you, to make sure your needs and wants and boundaries are taken care of, if you’re gonna have a bunch of strangers there — and will step in if needed. But also, even better if it’s just all friends the first time, and you’ve got people that care about you and love you and want this experience to go great.

I, having been past it now, am now willing to invite people that I don’t know as well to the situation. As long as I have a couple people I [00:23:00] do know really well in the situation.

Also after — there was some emotional, like, stuff that happens, that came up for me afterwards, after the fact. One of the things that came up for me — I like to call — you know that inner voice? It’s like your worst enemy, the one that, like, tears you down and is like, “you suck”? Those inner voices, I call those inner voices my brain goblins. And I had several brain goblins. Like, I just asked a lot of people, “What if it was too much? What if they don’t wanna be a part of my life anymore? What if, what if, what if, what if?”

And so I just debriefed with everybody afterwards. I was like, “How was it for you? How are you feeling after? Where are you now?” And everybody was like, “I was just so grateful to be part of that experience for you, and it was such a neat thing to be part of.” And they were just so glad to have been there. And some of them did take away some stuff. Like, that was really interesting for me. One of my partners — he had recently broken up with a long-term partner, but he was having a lot of emotional stuff [00:24:00] during it, and he just kept it out of the situation. But when I looked at pictures afterwards, I could see it, and we talked about it a little bit. And I just reminded him that if he needed a place to talk or have a conversation about it, it was okay to talk to me about it. And we sort of debriefed that a little bit. So when I do want to do this again, I’ll include him ’cause he’ll be in a better headspace, and he can be in it more. Plus he’s my favorite person who face fucks me. He does a really good job at it.

And, you know, everybody got a little something from it. One of the people there — he has a lot of anxiety, and so for him it was like, “Oh, I could just get out of my head and enjoy myself, and I don’t have to have all this carried with me the whole time.” And he had a support system worked out for himself. The woman who was there as his wife, she was his catcher if there was an anxiety moment. But it turned out not to be a problem. It was fine. One of these days he’s gonna believe me when I say, “No, really, you can just do what you want to me,” and he won’t have to think about it. And he’ll be able to just do what he wants. But he’s on a [00:25:00] journey.

I totally get, though, like, I would have those brain goblins too of, like, “Wait, is it okay? She said it’s okay, but is it okay?”

Yeah. And that’s the journey he’s on. That’s hard. And it was part of that journey for him, of moving past that.

So my brain goblins were, “Shit, nobody wants to be around me now that they’ve done this thing for me.” And I got to talk to everybody, and everybody’s like, “No, no, we love you still. It’s fine.” And I had to — I was so in such a deep place of free use that I had to sort of reclaim myself and recenter back in me.

The partner who put it together — I got a little too swept up in the “he’s in charge” headspace for a minute, and then had some — you know, we don’t live together. So there was some, like, disconnect between the way life was running and the kind of things I needed. And I was like, “Wait, wait, wait. I’m anchoring in him. I need to move my anchor back to me.” And so there was some recentering.

There’s a — I highly recommend this book, even if you’re monogamous. There’s a book called Polysecure that talks about secure attachment [00:26:00] for people who are polyamorous, but it applies. You can apply it in monogamous relationships too. And they talk in there about a secure base and a safe haven. The secure base is the place where you’re anchored, right? This is the place from which I explore. And the safe haven is the place you return to when you need to re-regulate or need companionship or comfort.

I am my secure base, and I have a myriad of safe havens. And that’s a different experience than most people do in monogamous relationships, where their secure base and their safe haven is that one person. I had to get back to my base. My base got shaky for a minute, and I had to re-anchor in my own base, in my center, so that I could be solid and function again, in relationship.

It also was — we just passed the anniversary of my separation from my ex-husband, and I had been with him for 20 years all told. And so we’d also been sliding out of that, into that anniversary time. And — I wasn’t expecting it to be emotional for me [00:27:00] this year, but it was. So there’s a little bit, like, the brain goblins were just loud in this last —

Yeah.

— like, few months. They’ve been really loud. And my humans have been great. I can say things like, “I’m having a bad brain goblin day. You guys all still love me, right?” And they’ll come back with affirmatives, or I’ll say what the brain goblin is saying, and they’ll go, “No, no.” And we’ll point at the evidence of why that’s not true. I do a lot of “what’s the evidence of my brain goblins lying?” — and I go look for it.

And so after the gang bang, there was a lot of my own work that had to happen for me to get back to center and to restabilize, because it was a really vulnerable experience where I went deep into my own fantasies and desires, and was loved and held in a safe way that is rare, I think, in our world. It’s just a lot. I love my ecosystem. Had to deal.

I love it so much. I was just getting emotional thinking about it as you were talking about the brain goblins, and how — I think you said the way you said it was to do reconnaissance [00:28:00] on it.

Yeah. Check in and find out what’s real and what’s a story.

So as you were talking about that, I had this “oh my god” moment of — Arana taught me this in my own life. I remember this was years ago, back when we worked together.

Mm-hmm.

We had a conversation like this, and I was going through some brain goblins, and you said to me, “You just ask. Check in with the person. Find out if this torment that you’re going through in your head is real, or if it’s just torment that you’re putting yourself through.” And I started to put that into practice in my life.

Amazing.

You know, it was a powerful principle, but I learned it from you.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah. And I don’t know that that really landed for me until you were just telling that story, and I was like, “Oh my God. Yeah, this is where I learned that from. I remember that conversation with her.” And so thank you for that. And I love that you continue to put that into practice in your life — that [00:29:00] you still experience brain goblins, you had this amazing experience of being able to check in with these people that were part of this incredible experience with you, just after the fact.

Because — I mean, I think that’s another thing. If we see gang bangs depicted on the internet, you don’t see that at all. You don’t see the humanity of the things that they do have to process. And I think that would be amazing. Somebody should produce that. To me, that would be the most amazing art of, like, painting the whole story.

Yep. Yep. Yeah. I wish — oh, I wish I could find the article that I read, ’cause she talked about some of her personal processing too. You know, and she’s more in sex work, so she didn’t have a chance to check in with these strangers in her life, really, after the fact. So there’s a real beauty in having people that care for you, part of your own process. And the trick is finding people that care for you as you are [00:30:00] fully, and not as they want you to be.

Right.

I think that’s really the trick. And I’d mentioned my divorce. We recognized that who we were weren’t good fits for each other. We dysregulated each other. We wanted different futures, and it was probably one of the most loving things we could do, was to let go.

Yes. Right.

And so often we try to fit into each other’s expectations, instead of being who we are, accepting where we are, and then letting go when it’s not healthy for either one of us in that space. And it’s turned out — my ex and I are really good friends now. And we’re co-parenting, and it’s a much better relationship for both of us.

Yeah.

But, you know, leave it to a polyamorous to redefine the successful relationships. Right? It’s not about how long it lasts, or if it stays forever. It’s about if it was healthy and good and supportive for both people involved.

Yeah.

Yeah. Definitely. And I got some of that in this — some really healthy, good, supportive experiences. It was [00:31:00] beautiful. But knowing your listeners, we probably should get to some of the more gritty stuff, huh?

Yes, let’s do that for sure. But at the same time, I feel like one of the things that I hear from listeners is just the humanity and the conversations — the women that come on the show. I think the color that you’re adding to this is part of what makes it so accessible.

Oh, good.

So, you know, like — something that someone could relate to. Because if I see a gang bang in porn, then there’s not nearly the context to be able to — even if there’s a fantasy that I have that I want to experience this — it’s just not depicted, usually, that you see all of the humanness around it and the experience around it, to be able to relate to that person. Some of the things that they’re saying are things I have brain goblins about, you know?

Yeah.

So I’m grateful that you’re [00:32:00] bringing all that. But yeah — so are you talking about some of the juicy salacious parts, some of the juicy salacious parts? Like, maybe they want that too.

Yeah. You did this in the last episode too, and I love you for it so much. Because that is a part of our humanity, that we have this salacious filthiness, and we don’t often get to talk about it in a way that’s okay. So I love that you’re bringing that. So let’s totally do it.

So you mentioned — and I wanted to unpack this a little bit more — that penetration is your jam.

That is my jam.

And so, is the preference for you for there to be a penis, or if it’s a something like a penis — that’s…

I say I like penises, preferably bio penises. But store-bought is fine. Okay.

So what will do?

Yep. So what will do. I will pillow-princess for women all day long. You want to go down on me? Great, that sounds great. It feels great for me. You’re enjoying yourself. Fantastic. But I’m not interested in doing that in return. So as long as they’re okay with that, it’s fine. You know, I [00:33:00] just don’t enjoy it. It’s not fun for me. And frankly, my body is built on easy mode. It’s super easy to get me off, and most women aren’t super easy to get off. And God, that’s a lot of work, and I don’t want to do it.

Right. Yeah. Like, that’s not your thing.

It’s not my thing.

I’m actually somebody who — that is my thing. Like, if it’s difficult for you and I have to really work for it and spend time down there and savor it, I’m all about that. If it takes a while, cool. That’s actually better for me, because I don’t really spend my time down there. But yeah, no, that’s cool. Yeah. So for you it’s like, “Hey, it happens quickly for me, and there you go.”

Yeah. And in the land of, like, sexuality, I’m not attracted to women sexually. I can see them, and they’re beautiful, and I connect with them, and can have a really deep emotional relationship, but —

Right.

You know that when you see somebody that’s attractive to you, that, like, hits you, get in your gut of desire, where you’re just like, [00:34:00] “Ugh, oh, I want that”? That hit, that happens — I don’t get that for women. I just don’t. I get that for men all the time, or male-presenting.

Right.

So that is true of me. And women who have slightly more stereotypical masculine —

Mm-hmm.

— energy are gonna appeal to me more in that space than more feminine women. It’s just how I’m wired. So generally speaking, I like penetration. I like that sensation of being impaled and consumed and taken. That really works for me. And I just don’t get that with women the same way I get it with men.

Right.

For better or worse. So yes, penetration’s my thing.

Yeah.

Fingers, penises, store-bought, whatever. I have this really ridiculous store-bought — we call him Titus. He’s been named. He’s big. He’s, like —

Oh, nice.

He’s, like, a soda can around, and just long, ridiculous. We call him Titus. I think he might’ve been [00:35:00] like a Bad Dragon style. Like, I think he might have come off of — he got one in a raffle at that conference I talked about last time.

Oh, okay. Right. That convention I talked about last time. So I don’t know where his source is, but he’s pink. He’s gigantic. We call him Titus.

Titus. I love it.

So, um —

Okay. And so penetration’s your jam. Titus is huge. And it sounds like, from the gang bang experience, that you enjoy penetration of your mouth, of your vagina —

All the spaces that it can go.

All the spaces that go, like, “Yes, penetrate me.”

Yep. I really do. And I had every configuration these six people involve themselves in my body in every configuration they could have. And it was delightful.

By the way, I’m gonna do a shameless plug for the Liberator chaise lounge.

Okay.

It is the one that’s like curved, and it’s got a high end and a low end. Okay. And it comes with a couple pillows so you can change the configuration of how it works. But [00:36:00] if you are older — I am nearing 50 — and if you are older and your knees are giving out and you would like to be on top, it’s the tool for you.

Oh, okay. Cool. It makes it easier to get —

Yeah. ’Cause it means you’re squatting instead of bending your knees deeply. Like, if you were on a flat surface, where you have to be on your knees, that’s no good.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Nice sex furniture. Do you have one in your house, and you’re like —

Yes.

That’s amazing for that.

Yes. I just — I became aware of it because of the show How to Build a Sex Room. It was on Netflix for a while. I’m sure you can still find it there. I wish they would do another season. And I was like, “Oh, that looks like it’s something good.” And then one of my partners bought one, and then another one of my partners bought one, and then I moved into this new house. I was like, “I should have one.” And so I got one also. The best one is the Esse — E-S-S-E, I think is how it’s spelled. It’s a little wide. They have a slightly thinner one that’s also as dense as that one, and that’s the ones I’d recommend. They’re really [00:37:00] great, ’cause then the person with the penis sits down in the chaise, and then you can get on top and ride in a squatty position, instead of an on-your-knees position.

Mm-hmm. Interesting. I’ve gotta check this out. I’m a little — I’m having difficulty picturing it exactly, but I mean, I have seen, I think, one of these before, and I had not seen it in use though. I hadn’t really, like, put it together — you know, the mechanics of it, how it works.

I’m gonna send you a link.

Cool. Sounds good. I love that you have one in your house, though. That’s the coolest —

Look, sex is one of my favorite pastimes. Yes.

Like I know that’s what I love. I love it so much. I mean, I love for you to come on here and to just be seen, and to let the world see that about you. Because, yeah, I’m certain that there are lots of female-presenting people who feel that way, but don’t feel permission.

Yeah. And — yeah, let me tell you about something you hit. There is something about perimenopause and being over 40, [00:38:00] and you’re like — you are out of fucks when you get to this age. Like, I have no fucks to give anymore. You don’t like the way I’m living in my life — that’s your problem, not my problem. And I — the release from shame and embarrassment of my existence is phenomenal.

That said, not everybody is great at letting go of the shame and embarrassment, and I can’t recommend therapy enough for that. So get your therapy.

You’re getting into something that I was actually feeling this morning, like when I was in bed anticipating this. Kind of get into — and I know it’s not the salacious part, but to me it’s extremely meaningful. ’Cause I also, as you know, have been through this journey of, like —

Mm-hmm.

— letting go of the person that I was supposed to be, should be, all of that. To, like, give myself permission to finally explore who I am, and what do I really want — especially when it comes to my sexuality, but in every way.

And — I mean, of course, for me, one of the things that has changed dramatically is, like, my willingness to just be visible on the internet and be like, “This is what it is.”

Yeah.

You know? [00:39:00] We’ll just see what happens with this information getting out, but I’m choosing it. But yeah, I mean, I love that about your story — the way I remember you saying it in the last episode was, you kind of had been through this period where you had accepted constraints that weren’t authentic for you, and you had just reached a point where you were like, “That is a non-negotiable for me now,” I think is the way that you said it.

Yeah.

“I’m just not going to enter into relationship agreements or situations that mean that I have to constrain myself when it comes to my sexual expression, my sexual play. I’m going to create the relationships in my life that allow me to explore those things and be that person.” And I love that. So first of all, did I get that correct? Is that —

Like, yes. I don’t know if those were the exact words I said — I would have to go back and listen myself — but that definitely is the spirit of where I live, for sure.

And I love that. I love it so much. Because I know — I [00:40:00] know — so one of the things from doing this podcast is, you know, I get these, like, offline private conversations with people who are hearing it, and also from my writing, same thing. I know that there are female-presenting people out there who are like, “I want that life. This resonates with me, and I don’t feel — you know, everything I’ve learned up to this point tells me it’s not okay. I don’t get to be that person. I have to fit into a certain…” And so I just love that you’re showing up in the world, that you’ve been on that journey, and that you’ve chosen for yourself, and that you’re now sharing it.

Yeah.

True facts. If sex work were legal and less stigmatized, and my children were all the way out of the house, I would absolutely be a sex worker. Like, my passion lives there.

And I don’t know if you’ve heard about — if you’ve heard of ikigai. We may have talked about it before.

Mm-hmm.

I think it’s spelled I-K-A-I-G-A-I, but don’t quote me on that. If you start to type it in [00:41:00] in Google, it’ll come out. But ikigai is the reason for being. I’m gonna get that a little bit wrong, but it’s a Japanese term. It essentially means: what are you good at, what do you love doing, what does the world need, and what can you get paid at. And I really think sex work would be my ikigai, if it was a legal thing in the society. Because I’m good at it. I have references. I love doing it. I could get paid for it. And it is something the world needs.

Yes, absolutely.

You know, the number of men — like, the patriarchy isn’t just hard for women. The number of male-presenting people I’ve come across that are like, “I can just be myself with you, and express what I’m interested in, and if you’re interested in it, you’re on board, and if you’re not interested in it, you’re supportive of me finding it” — right? Yes. And, like, being held in a safe sexual space for you to explore. There’s limits to that. You know, no children, no animals, consent first, right? That whole thing is important, right? But the ability to hold another human in that space, [00:42:00] to be a safe space for them to talk and get support and be themselves — and be vulnerable — is critical. And men — male-presenting humans — don’t have a lot of places to be vulnerable. And for it to be okay for vulnerability —

Right? Yeah.

So it is definitely something I would do. And given my training in coaching and leadership and organizational development, I would probably couple it with something that is therapeutic in nature. You can’t be the person doing the sex and doing the therapy, but I would probably couple it with somebody that could help with that too.

Oh, I bet that sounds so epic. I hope one day they just legalize it, and it all works out for you. Because I agree with you that it is needed. I just did — I was on another podcast as a guest, and this woman, who is the host, was talking about — she had an OnlyFans for I don’t know how long, but [00:43:00] that was her experience being on OnlyFans, is that she was a safe space for these people coming to her. And she was able to — and it was safe for her. And it was, you know, it was a very therapeutic environment, but it was obviously very — sex was the topic. And yeah, I mean, I’ve experienced it, and know it to be true that it can be healing.

So I love hearing you say that.

Mm-hmm.

That would be your — what? How did you say that? Ikigai? Is that ikigai? Yes.

Let me find a link. I’ll give it to you too.

I love this idea, and I love that that’s yours. That’s so beautiful.

I did spell it wrong. I-K-I-G-A-I.

Mm-hmm.

Fabulous.

Yeah. And it’s pretty amazing. And I think there are people out there where this is their spirit. Connection with humans, physically and emotionally, is part of how they work.

Yeah.

And maybe the opposite of sociopathy or something.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:44:00] Right.

Yeah. Well, I mean, the way I think about it, honestly — because I had this, like, spirituality over here, sexuality over here. That was, like, the story that I lived in for so long. But now it makes so much sense to me that, like, from a spiritual standpoint, I think — maybe we’re all in this together. And there’s a oneness to us. Then sexually, why wouldn’t we be drawn to merge and to be intimate and all that? If, in fact, really, spiritually, we’re actually not as separate as we imagine that we are, and perceive that we are through our sort of limited understanding of human experience or whatever. So to me, sexuality seems like an expression of, like, probably our truest —

Mm-hmm.

— nature, really.

I think it can be. I mean — I don’t want to exclude people who are asexual. I get that that exists too, right? Like, I think for some people, this is one of our truest expressions, and we get the closest to ourselves and to [00:45:00] whatever spirit is, and to each other, in it. And there are some people that find other ways to that.

Yeah.

And neither is wrong. That’s sort of where I live with it.

Yes. Yeah.

So we were talking about penetration, we were talking about —

No, we were, and then we wandered back into emotional stuff. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I got — yes, yes, okay.

So you like the penetration. Do you also like the fluids involved? ’Cause you’re a person, you put out fluids.

I put out tons of fluids. I do like it when other people’s fluids are involved. But if you’re going for eight hours, everybody’s trying not to make that happen. So there’s a bit of — I think if it had been more people over the eight hours, so everybody could have done their thing and then there was somebody else to pinch hit — ’cause people of the male persuasion very often aren’t multiple orgasmic. They’re usually like, “We got you, we got your one.” Right? I would enjoy a more cream pie event. This particular event did not include that. [00:46:00] And the smuttiest way that came out of my head was, “Yes, please fill me like a Twinkie.”

Yeah. I love it.

But that is not a thing that happened in this particular scenario. Of the people that were there, only two of them regularly make it to that with me anyway. They just — it’s just the way their bodies — no, that’s not true. Three of them. Three of them make it to that regularly with me, and it’s just the way that the bodies of the other people function. Sometimes the orgasm is rare for men, and sometimes it’s frequent. Or the ejaculatory orgasm — I have a few people in my spectrum that are not ejaculatory orgasms too. So no, I would love that, but it didn’t happen. And that’s okay too.

Sure.

Yeah, I made enough mess for everybody. We had nine sex blankets that night, and I think we went through seven or eight of them. And saved one for the morning. We went through seven or eight of them. Of course, we got to the morning, and I was like, “We’re not using that sex blanket, thank you very much.”

You’re like, “One blanket’s gonna stay clean.”

That’s right. Have [00:47:00] enough laundry to do.

That’s right. Another shameless plug: the brand Top. They’re dog blankets, but they are the best I’ve found for catching fluids. And they cover most of a king-size bed.

Oh, sweet.

Yeah. Top — you can find ’em on Amazon.

Huh? You’re such a treasure of great information for these things. This is cool. I had not heard of that for either. And I have wondered that, because I would imagine — I mean, I don’t know, but I would think that if you want to relax into that experience as a squirter, that it helps to know that you’ve got a blanket or whatever it is that’s going to handle that —

Yeah.

— explosive moment.

Yeah, I don’t want to have to replace my mattress every month, so there is a desire to — or the couch. Like, that’s a big expense for one night of fun, right?

Yeah.

So it is critically important to me not to have to think about the mess I’m gonna make. And I have orgasm control, so [00:48:00] I can pull it back. I can make it not happen for a long time and edge myself through it. But I do want that release eventually. And blankets make it all better.

You know, there’s a book — Come As You Are is the name of the book — and she talks about your brakes and your accelerators. Like, there’s things that are gonna stop your sexual interest — they’re the brakes — and there are things that are gonna encourage your sexual interest — they’re your accelerators. And “I’m gonna make a mess and have to clean this later” is a brake. That is so big for me. And I’m just like, “If you want me to have a good time here, I need to know everything’s gonna — I’m gonna be able to sleep in this bed, and it will be dry.”

That is exactly — yeah. When it’s over, I don’t want to have a cleanup.

Yeah, that’s right. I don’t have many brakes, and my accelerator is always to the floor — but “do I have to clean up this mess later” is one of my brakes.

Sure.

So —

Yeah, I’m sure you’re not alone with that.

So — Top blankets. Top is the brand. They’re waterproof blankets that you can find on Amazon, and they’re not [00:49:00] inexpensive. They’re about $80 a pop. But — I just, one of them finally failed on me for the first time, and it’s almost three years old, and I use my blankets very regularly. I have four of them. I have to clean all four at least twice a week. That’s my life.

Mm-hmm.

So, okay. So I’m thinking about your evening, and the six people. Six, right?

Yep. Six.

Do you have any idea how many times you came during this experience of eight hours?

Eight blankets. I destroyed eight blankets. That was where we were like — and when I say destroyed, it’s like when we found no dry spots left, then it was time for that blanket to be retired. And there’s always like, “Okay, I’ve made a mess on one side. We’ll fold it over in half. Anybody — use it in half for a minute.” So lots of —

Mileage out of each blanket.

Lots of mileage out of each blanket. So a ton would be the answer I would have there. I didn’t even know my body could produce that much. This is why hydration is key.

Mm-hmm.

So that was a lot of fun. Keep hydrating. And everybody that’s there also really loves getting that [00:50:00] reaction from me. So that was encouraged.

The partner who put this together — G — he’s gotten to a place where he could just, like, tell me to come in my ear, and it’ll cause it. Like, it’s a mess. I mean, not just flat — not just like, we’re at the kitchen table and he tells me and I come, no, not there. But I have to be worked up a little bit, but then he can just say it. Once I’m — once you’re —

Once you’re in that space —

Once I’m keyed up, it’s happening.

That’s amazing.

Yeah.

Fantastic. And I guess that’s, like, with him, that you have that kind of dynamic that he can — I gotcha.

Yeah. We have a little bit of a D/s dynamic at play. I would call myself a bottom — a pleasure bottom. He would call himself a pleasure or service top. And those two things go really well together, turns out.

Yeah. That’s fair.

And most of the time I end up with people who would define themselves as service tops or pleasure tops. And I get really in the headspace with him. We’ve been together — we’ll be three years this spring. And he is [00:51:00] — he is the first man since my Pop-Pop that I felt this safe with. And for me, the accelerator is safety.

Yes.

If I feel safe —

Yes.

— like, really safe, right down to my core —

Yes.

— I’m in. And he makes me feel really safe.

Yeah.

So I’m so glad you’re bringing this up. And I know I keep going to, like, the headspace stuff —

Well, I guess it’s the headspace call for this one. But I’ll tell you why I love that you brought this up. Because I was thinking about this this morning, and I just had this conversation with another woman who follows the podcast. And she is going through this — she’s in a relationship now where she feels a level of safety that she’s never felt before, and she’s experiencing things sexually that she has never experienced before. And it’s, like, rewriting her whole understanding of —

Yeah.

— of what sex can be, and how she’s showing up in it. And I was thinking about that, and thinking about this conversation about a gang bang, and how I could imagine that there [00:52:00] would be listeners who would think, “How could you possibly ever feel safe enough to enjoy a gang bang? Isn’t it just this, like, almost violent experience that is anything but safe?” But — I love that you just brought up safety as, like, this is such a key component for you, and you’ve created this experience. So we’ve covered, like, why it was safe for you, but I guess I just love that this came out in this conversation — that it’s possible to create a safe gang bang.

It’s possible. And in fact, most gang bangs are safe. If you think about the stuff that’s in porn, they go through all kinds of conversations around what’s okay, what’s not okay, what are we gonna do, what are we not gonna do. The person who is the focal point for a gang bang sets down the boundaries and rules for that. And you create your own safety. Safety is an inside job. So what do you need to feel safe? Communicate that, and then be around people who respect it. That’s the critical piece.

When I think about doing a [00:53:00] gang bang with strangers — which is now a possibility in my head — when I think about doing it with strangers, I would have people there that would be my — I’m gonna put that in air quotes — but, like, the people that tended to me, that were watching my boundaries for me so I could be in the zone. And my safety would be given to them. And not to the strangers, but to the people that I feel safe with. Right? It’s, like, it’s like a stripper taking a bouncer to a gig, right? Like, you take the person who’s protecting you with you, and you give the protection over to somebody else, so you can be in the moment.

Yeah.

That’s absolutely part of what would happen for me if there were strangers involved.

Yeah.

And there’s, like — again, I’m gonna have to find this article and send it to you, but this article I was talking about, she had this whole process. Her friends did the intake process. Hundreds of people applied to be in her gang bang. And they had to be willing to get a test. They had to be willing not to have sex for a certain period of time after that test. They had to get a rather detailed STD testing, actually deeper than [00:54:00] most STD tests go. And so on.

One of the people that came to her gang bang was a virgin. It was his first time. I have age restrictions — like, I won’t date anybody or be involved physically with somebody who’s more than 10 years younger than me. At that point, you are closer to the age of my children than you are to the age of me, and it is uncomfortable for me. I don’t want that experience. I almost have one in the other direction, but it’s more for emotional relationships and physical ones. Like, that is the space I land in.

So you get to set the boundaries for your experiences to create the safety that is true for you, even if it’s with strangers. And if you don’t do the paperwork, have somebody that’s there to watch your boundaries. Essentially have bouncers in these kinds of professional gang-bang-style things. Sex and porn and stuff — you know, they’ve got fluffers there who sometimes take the pressure off, right?

Mm-hmm.

You know, those sorts of things are happening. The woman who did this did a whole bunch of data charts about how many people orgasmed, who [00:55:00] they orgasmed with, what their experiences were there. They intentionally took data so they could provide information out of this experience. And it was pretty phenomenal.

Your safety is in your hands. Communicate your boundaries and your needs. And then only involve yourself with people who will respect it. And figure out how to figure that out. That’s really what safety is about. I’m a firm believer that safety is an inside job, and so is happiness. There definitely are catalysts to —

Yeah.

— other things. And not to say that people can’t have their safety. Like, I could be in a situation, even with minders, where my safety gets —

Right.

— compromised, and I’m gonna have to deal with the fallout of that. There’s always a chance that I could. It’s a risk. Any human connection is risky.

Yeah.

But this is why I anchor in myself and not in other people. I’m anchored here. I trust myself to keep myself safe. And that’s where that starts for me.

Yeah. And, you know — and too, as you’re [00:56:00] talking about this, I’m just — you have been on a journey to make it where you could have the conversations to create that safety, to express what your desires and needs are, getting away from “what is too much,” to have the permission to say, “This is what I want.” And I just think that’s the power of this conversation on the internet. Because there’s other people who need that. They need somebody like you to say, “I struggled with that, but here I am today, and I wanted to have a gang bang and I wanted that to be safe for me, and it was possible to create that.” And there’s somebody sitting in a situation in their life where, up until the moment that they heard you say that, it was hard for them to imagine that that could even be possible for them. But they want it.

Mm-hmm.

And so — yeah, I mean, I just feel like in the world we are on the precipice of just the beginning of what might be possible in our species — of, like, [00:57:00] creating the kind of experiences that you managed to create for yourself — if it becomes more okay for people to voice that they might want this.

Yep.

You know, so —

Yeah. I think when society stops looking down on sexual expression and recognizes it as an expression, and doesn’t make it dirty or filthy in our heads — when it just is — we’re on the path to creating those spaces for people. Is it for everyone? No. And that’s okay too. Does it necessarily belong in a business professional setting? Maybe not. And —

Well, maybe.

Well, maybe. I mean, some business and professional settings are sex work, right? It absolutely belongs there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, you know, we became friends in a professional setting and discovered a common overlap over time.

Carefully. Like, we both sort of, like —

Test the waters a little bit. There’s a little bit of testing you do. And it’s important. In a [00:58:00] business or professional setting, it’s important to know that there is an existing expectation that your sexual self doesn’t show up there, and your romantic self doesn’t show up there. But sometimes there’s exceptions to those rules. Sex work is one of them. Or people who met at work and started dating is another one. Right. That does happen.

Yeah. And the more we shame it —

Yes.

— the harder it is for people to get to the safety they need.

Yes.

To have the kind of transparency they need to feel safe.

Yes.

And to get the support and help they need when it goes wrong.

Yes. Yes. Yep.

And yeah, I feel like your podcast is doing good things in the world, because it’s really challenging that idea that it’s supposed to be secret and wrong and bad — “don’t talk about it.” And instead, it’s “no, talk about it. That’s how we learn and grow.”

Yeah.

A long time ago, I miscarried a child. And I’m okay now. But at the time, it was very hard. It was — gosh, 15, 16 years ago now. And I remember, I was very out loud about it. I had this miscarriage, and the number of people that came out of the woodwork [00:59:00] to share their experience — only after I miscarried did I discover how common they are, did I discover other people’s stories. It gave me a whole new picture of that experience, and then suddenly I had a community.

Boy, wouldn’t it have been neat if I’d known that that was a possibility in advance, and could have already had a community of support beforehand? I got so many stories — from early pregnancy miscarriages to late pregnancy stillbirths — by just sharing my story and the experience I was going through. And likewise, my husband at the time, he also was really hurt and sad and upset about it. And men definitely don’t talk about it.

Right. Yeah, absolutely.

And it’s, like, we need each other to talk about things, or else we feel othered and wrong [01:00:00] and dirty and bad — and like all of these things that just aren’t true. We’re just humans living our human experience.

Yeah.

And the human experience includes sex. And it includes loss, and it includes mistakes, and you have to be able to recover from those mistakes. I actually struggle with cancel culture, because — people, if you cancel them, they just get defensive. We don’t actually learn. And we need to.

Yeah, no, I struggle with it too, for the same reason. ’Cause I’m like, how do we evolve as a collective?

Yeah.

If the way that we respond to things we don’t like is, we just cancel you, and you get no more chances, and you get no conversation. You just get canceled.

You just get canceled. And who am I to cancel somebody for an experience that happened between two other people? One of my favorite authors — it’s come out that he has sexually assaulted somebody. And I absolutely believe her. I also absolutely love his work, and I don’t know what to do about it. I’m, like, stuck in this catch-22 — should I still invest in his [01:01:00] work while this thing is going on? I 100% believe her. The story she told came out. It was detailed. I understand what happened and where it went wrong. I also have some empathy for where he was in his life. And I believe in — yes, there should be some consequences for it, and I think the consequences should be decided by her and by him. And there should ideally be some sort of restorative justice where they both heal.

Yeah.

But that’s not always possible, and not everybody lives there. And just saying those things, I know, will probably anger somebody, and I want to just say this out loud: everybody should be where they are on that subject, and decide for themselves what the right path is.

I find it very hard for me to hate somebody. I just don’t have hate in me. And I have a lot of compassion and empathy in me, and I have compassion and empathy for both sides of stories most of the time, and trying to find, like, how to even do that. I think it would be really great if we were less of a [01:02:00] revenge culture and more of a restorative culture in general. And not everything can be restored. I get that too. And so what’s the path forward when it can’t be restored? Anyways, I could soapbox about this for a long time.

I love it. I love it. So I mean, it’s interesting that you’re saying that, because it’s so in the vibe of a conversation I just had for another episode, for the podcast that’s coming out soon, on the topic of infidelity. But what you just said is the exact spirit of the guest that I had — what they had to say about it.

Amazing.

So I wanted to come back to the salacious part just a little bit.

We’re gonna try hard to stay salacious. Let’s see if we can manage it.

Well, so, I mean, if you were to pick — I don’t know, a couple of moments that felt particularly salacious from this experience that stand out for you as, “Ooh, that was particularly scandalous”…

Yeah, there’s a couple that came to mind as you said that. Well, when we were trying to figure out the DP with two [01:03:00] penises — the partner who scheduled it was on the bottom, and then I laid down on top of him, and then somebody came in behind. So vaginal on the bottom and anal on the top, and then I had penises in each hand and a penis in my mouth. That felt really salacious. And that is one, two, three, four, five of people, right?

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah. The sixth person came over. I’m really triggered by auditory stuff. Like, people saying things to me — triggered good, not triggered bad, like —

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Activated. Yeah, activated. And she leans over and she goes, “You remember that thing that you’ve been dreaming about happening for months and months and months, maybe even years? It’s happening right now.” And I just came all over the place. It was like —

Oh yeah.

I was like — and that was the end of that DP. ’Cause I squeezed everybody out of me. It was like —

Mm-hmm.

— and we all had a giggle about it. And everybody was having a hard time staying hard, ’cause it’s a lot of focus on geometry, right? So we all had a good laugh about it, and I was like — they’re like, “Well, should we try again?” And I was like, “You know, that was exactly what I wanted it to be. That was amazing. I think I’m okay if we want to try something else.” And [01:04:00] everybody was like, “Okay, let’s move on to something else.” And they were like, “Well, we want to make sure you really get the full breadth of the experience.” I’m like, “I absolutely got the full breadth of that experience. That was amazing.” So that was a lot of fun.

And the other one came to mind — I had two penises in my mouth at one time. One of them was hard and one of them was soft. So I got to suck the soft one around the hard one. It was really fun. The ring of penises — like, the circle of penises to suck on — also felt really salacious.

Oh, look at me here, handling everybody’s penis.

Those are some of the ones that really stood out. There were some funny moments too. One of my partners — he’s well-endowed, so I want to say that in advance.

Yeah, he’s well-endowed.

Right. He fills me well. But he’s shorter in stature than everybody else in my life, and he’s, as such, also thinner in stature than everybody else in my life. And most of the people in my life, I can just barely touch my toes if I wrap my legs around them, right?

Yeah.

They’re broad. But him, I can, like, almost touch my feet to my knees [01:05:00] when I wrap myself around him.

Yeah.

And we were just in the moment, and I went, “You’re so tiny.” And he’s like, “In me?”

He’s not tiny.

“You are so tiny.” And the whole room went silent. And I pause and I went, “No, not like that.”

Right? Yeah.

I meant around your chest — like, the parts that I’m wrapping my legs around tiny. And we all had a good giggle about it. And then he fucked me harder, actually, as a result. There was a little consequence for that.

Yeah. “I’ll show you tiny.”

But we all had a giggle, because he’s probably — he’s one of the longest people in the room, I think. He’s not small. It was really funny in the moment.

There were just a couple of really funny moments. We did take a break at one point, and we had been taking video throughout the evening, and so we took a break and watched the videos from earlier in the evening. It inspired the second half of the night. And we had some good giggles [01:06:00] watching that. Like, there was a moment where I was on somebody’s lap, laying back with my head towards their feet, but in the video it looked like their feet were, like, disembodied out by the sides of my head. It was really funny. So we had some laughs about that. And then — yeah, little feet by my head.

And apparently there was some conversation about showing up in Teletubby costumes in the thread that they had before this gang bang. And so Teletubbies kept coming up, and so Teletubbies were, like, a funny trigger for everybody in the room. It was kind of silly.

So yeah, there were just lots of really good experiences. Fucking people down the couch was another fun moment for me too.

I think maybe the most salacious part is, I really felt like a cherished toy. I was everybody’s toy for the night, and I felt cherished and held in it. And it was really great. It was really great.

You know that moment when you’re eating, and you take that really deep breath of “ugh, I’m full”? That, like, “right, that food” — I did that at the end. When I was done, I had this moment of, like, [01:07:00] yeah. And I was, like, done. And I passed out, like, in minutes. It was, like, ten minutes later, I was zonked out. They were all cleaning the house and straightening things back up, and I was done.

I was —

You were, like, just silly. In such a good way.

Yeah. In such a good way.

I was wondering that when you were talking about, like, kind of getting to that coping point, where you were like, “Okay, my body’s starting to give me signals that maybe I’m reaching the end of this.” Like, if you had a moment of just, like, incredible dissociation where you were like —

Yep.

So that sounds like —

Yep, I definitely hit it. So six people, eight hours. That is my limit.

Yeah, yeah. That’s your PR.

So —

Well, I love it. And so it sounds like you’ve got your favorite pictures on your FetLife. And — is your FetLife, like, public, people in FetLife can see all this? Or do they have to, like —

They can see the public things.

Okay.

That’s me. So you’ve got the link. And if you go to my pictures, you’ll find them.

Well, [01:08:00] one of the things I wanted to ask you about that aspect of it is, like, having had this experience and putting it out on FetLife — how does it feel for you? I guess I’m wondering if you have any, like, exhibitionism, or just liberation around there being pictures that are out there, or the story that you’ve told, or even being on this podcast and telling it.

Well, I’d like to share stories.

Mm-hmm.

I like to talk about things that have happened to me. I did do a post about this, so a lot of what I’ve shared here is in the post. And I got some really great responses to it. Not a lot, but really great responses. People who were like, “Welcome to the gang bang club.” There was definitely a person who was like, “Yeah, me too. This is so amazing. You’ll never go back now.” And then some people are like, “Oh, frank — thanks for sharing.”

I love that.

And of course, people that messaged me about it that were like, “Hey,” which I don’t respond to, those kinds of things. But then some people that messaged me that wanted to understand more about how it worked and how it happened — [01:09:00] and I’m happy to have those conversations with people.

Yeah.

But, you know, if you’re interested in hearing my sexual journey further, I often post about it on FetLife, where there’s pictures that come out, things like that. So it’s a good way to go about things.

There may eventually be an OnlyFans page. I haven’t decided yet, but there might be. Yes, I welcome encouragement, if you’re like, “Yes, definitely, you should have an OnlyFans page.”

Oh yeah. No, I mean, because look, here’s what I love about OnlyFans. I love that they shifted the whole, like, who’s in control of creating the content and who’s getting compensated for the content. To me, it’s just like, if this person is getting to express their creativity and what they — you know, what’s exciting for them, what they want to show in the world, and how they want to show up, and get compensated for it in a way that they have more control over — to me, that’s, like, what sex [01:10:00] content should have always been, you know?

Mm-hmm. I would love to see you do that. I think that would be —

Yeah. I have one up. I just haven’t —

Oh, yeah.

— done anything with it yet. So I’m gonna be working with a fantastic — I’m planning to work with a person who knows about that and can help me. Like, I don’t have the time or energy to do all of the constant stuff. So I’m planning on working with somebody that can help me with that bit of things.

Yeah.

It would be fun. It is also really nervous-making — a little sketchy about doing it before my kids fully graduated from high school, you know?

Oh, right. Yeah, no, I completely understand that. I mean, all this visibility stuff that I’ve done, I did wait. I told my son — graduated high school — and I told him, mm-hmm, his senior year, “Just get ready, because once you graduate, dad’s gonna really come out full more.” Yeah. But yay, I love that you’re thinking about it.

Yeah. I mean, this might have to be part three, conversationally, when you experience —

I am hanging a shingle as a [01:11:00] relationship coach to help people with ethical non-monogamy.

Mm-hmm.

And so that’ll come out soon. It’s under a different name. But that’ll be probably one aspect of that life for me.

Yeah, cool.

And, yeah, we’ll just see where that goes from there. I could also see potentially doing some sex coaching, things like that. So we’ll just see where it goes. But this is a life I’d like to have more of.

Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah. I, I wish that — before you — I just — thank you. Yes. Zero magical.

I guess to that point, if anybody ever comes across in your work that you’re like, “I know somebody that you could work with on ethical non-monogamy” —

Yeah.

— yeah, I’d be happy to be a coach for them.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well, let me ask you this. Okay — your interview questions. You said audio and video. I mean, how are you — because I know last time we were not so sure about [01:12:00] how much identity-wise…

I don’t care. I’m okay if you do audio and video. My request to the humans out there that see it is that, if we’re in a professional setting, don’t call me out. That’s rude. That’s the boundary I put out there about it. But I am willing to trust your audience to be smart about it. So —

Okay.

I don’t have any problem being out.

Okay. Yeah. You’re a warrior.

I love it. I put that so hard, because I am too. I’m like, “Damn, gonna show up.”

Yeah. So —

So all right. Well, I love you. Thank you so, so much.

Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. This was amazing. You’re amazing.

You’re amazing.

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