[00:00:00] Marvin: Welcome to Filthy Little Secrets, the show where real, everyday women get real about sex. We're here to shatter stigma and trample taboo. One candid conversation at a time. My name's Marvin, but my readers know me as Morgan Hale filthy romance author, and I'm your host for this heart to heart chat about something most of us think about, dream about, and even yearn for.

But few of us feel comfortable admitting it, talking about it, or celebrating it. So let's get filthy together.

[00:00:28] Marvin: Hey. All right. Welcome. Welcome everyone. I have someone I'm very excited to talk to because she has some great stories and adventures that she's been on, and, I'm just grateful that she is willing to share and dive into them. , thank you so much, Michelle, for being here and being open to this conversation. 

[00:00:49] Michelle: Sure. I'm glad to be here. 

[00:00:51] Marvin: It was there a, pivotal point for you in your journey as a sexually liberated woman that was like your [00:01:00] first experience that felt like you were doing something that was outside the lines and , that moment where you're like, yes , this is what I want and need, in my life.

[00:01:09] Michelle: Probably when I was in my early twenties, I was in a relationship, but I wasn't married, but I was in a relationship and the relationship was very controlling. So like I wasn't allowed to have a job. I couldn't have friends, I didn't have a car, all kinds of stuff. Well. As my daughter got older, I started to get my independence back.

I had been with this person since I was 17, so I started slowly getting my independence, and I was able to finally get a job. Well, I got a job working around all men and, most of them all, well all of them were married and we went out for drinks after work one day, and I don't even know how it happened, but I ended up kissing one of the guys I [00:02:00] worked with when I was walking to my car and I was always like one of the guys, you know, like I hung around with all mm-hmm guys and stuff like that, even in high school and stuff, So like I was just one of the guys, you know, that's why they asked me to go out for drinks. So I ended up kissing him and then that led to, he was married, had kids, and that actually led to us starting an affair and we worked together. And the crazy thing was, it's almost like it.

Gave me power because I was like, okay, so I'm over here , being downplayed by my partner, you're fat. I was literally a hundred pounds, you know, you're this, you know, so like all these negative things that are just in my head and then somebody on the side is giving me attention,

so of course I'm gonna gravitate towards that attention. It just started a process of having an affair. He and I, and we did it for like two years and it was crazy because this was back in the time where there was no really no cell phones, but you know, we still had pagers.

He would get called out for work.

[00:02:58] Marvin: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:59] Michelle: And so [00:03:00] we actually had this thing to where we didn't speak at work. It was so weird. 

[00:03:05] Marvin: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:05] Michelle: And if it was raining outside when we left work, 'cause we both lived out of town from where we worked. So if it was raining that day, when we would pass each other going to the time clock either he or I would say, oh, it's raining outside.

And that was. To meet at a park. So we'd go meet at a park and we would just have sex in his car actually, 'cause we didn't have sex in my car. Um, but we'd have sex in his car it went on for like two years. And then when that got boring, the sex in the car. It got to where, and thank God this was before cameras and cell phones and everything, but he would literally, like I would page him on the work pager and there was a code that I would put in.

And then whenever I knew he was on call, 'cause I had the schedule, then I would put in a code. We would actually meet at the place we worked at and we'd have sex at work. And we'd have sex on the boss's [00:04:00] desk, on the break room table on like everybody's desk. And it was horrible. Mm-hmm. But it was so fun.

And then like to go to work. Yeah. This was always on the weekend. And then to go to work on a Monday and just like, you know, you're sitting at your desk and you're watching all these people sit around and you're like, ha, I just fucked on your chair. You know? 

[00:04:23] Marvin: Yeah. 

[00:04:24] Michelle: It was. You know, and like that went on for like two years and, and it was, it was fun.

And that was like probably my first real, my first affair that I ever had. Mm-hmm. That was my first one. 

[00:04:36] Marvin: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:36] Michelle: But it was, it was fun. 

[00:04:38] Marvin: Yeah. That 

[00:04:38] Michelle: was definitely 

[00:04:39] Marvin: fun. Well, so can we, can we dive into the feelings a little bit? I mean, I know there's things that I relate to.

So there's this woman, I think her name is Miss Jaya, and she has this erotic blueprint framework. And it's this test that you take with all these questions to kind of assess what is the nature of your sexuality?

What things turn you on? And one of her, I guess it would be like an [00:05:00] archetype, is she calls it kinky and it's not. Like she says kinky, and I think a lot of people would just think DDSM, but what she really means by it is anything that's taboo, anything that is like against the rules, so to speak.

If you are a kinky person in her way of thinking about it, then you're likely turned on by anything that's quote unquote wrong or taboo or , against the rules. And I definitely have that, there's things that for me are erotic simply because I'm not supposed to do it, you know?

Correct. And, um, so I don't know, do you relate to that? Is that kind of part of it for you? 

[00:05:36] Michelle: Yes. And that's a big thing for me. Like I think it's more of like, I chase the thrill of knowing I'm not supposed to be doing it, and the fact that mm-hmm. I'm not supposed to be doing it makes it even hotter.

[00:05:50] Marvin: Yeah.

[00:05:50] Michelle: Uh, like for me, because my husband and I have an open marriage now. And for me, like if he knows that I'm going to [00:06:00] be going have sex with someone else, it's actually not as fun as when he doesn't know. I prefer when he doesn't know. It's like whenever I was doing it before he found out.

It was like really, really, really erotic. Really sexual, yeah. Like, oh my God. It was like the emotions were there and it was just so much. Mm-hmm. And then it's like whenever I had permission, I'm like, it's not fun anymore. Which is horrible. Right. But it wasn't the same. It just wasn't the same, you know? I mean, whenever somebody tells you, you can do something.

You just like, nah, okay, fine. You know, it's not, it's not as fun. Yeah. So I, I think a big part of me likes to chase the thrill of it, you know? And to me it's almost like, and I know this sounds bad and most people would think it sounds horrible, but like. Because you know, I only cheat if it's an even playing field.

Like the person has to be married, has to have things to lose. Just like I have things to [00:07:00] lose because if not, that's when feelings get involved. That's when you get stalkers and I ain't about that life. I just wanna fuck you and move on. So like right. I make sure there's an even playing field. And to me, my thing is like, okay, I know you have a fine ass wife at home, but you're over here fucking me.

So it's almost like a thrill of winning the prize when really it's not really. Yeah. But to me it is because I got that. 

[00:07:23] Marvin: Yeah. You 

[00:07:24] Michelle: know, so yeah, I definitely, me it's, it's chasing the thrill. I love, like that's the part of it that I really, I really like. 

[00:07:32] Marvin: Yeah, and I mean the thing that I love about what you just said, and about finding this woman's erotic blueprint framework is I'm sure there's lots of people who feel this way, but it is like there's judgment around it. And like you said, there would be people who see it as horrible and I don't even honestly wanna take that away from them. If that's how they see it. That's how they see it. And that's their right to see it that way and to feel that way about it.

But the fact is there's people on this [00:08:00] planet, you and me included. This is the way our sexuality is actually wired. If it's wrong, quote unquote, if it's bad, if it's we're not supposed to do it, that actually makes it erotic and exciting and something that we, that we desire. I love you for telling that story and,

Breaking it down that, that is part of what makes it so satisfying. When you are in that moment of , fucking this person and they're inside of you is your mind like his wife isn't home right now or My husband doesn't know that I'm doing, are those like thoughts going through your head when that happens or is that like later for 

[00:08:36] Michelle: you?

No, sometimes. Sometimes it does. But then sometimes that'll even turn me on more. ' cause so I had I was fucking this guy and I would literally, when his wife would go out of town, I'd go to his house. And so I'm like, okay, I'm fucking you in your bed that you fuck your wife in. I'm fucking you in the shower.

I'm fucking you in the pool outside. And that [00:09:00] kind of would turn me on a little bit more because I knew how wrong it was. And so that, to me, that was a bigger turn than anything because it was wrong, and it wasn't supposed to be happening when I first started doing it. The guilt would kind of slip in every now and then, but then the feelings would overpower the guilt, I guess.

And 

So I would deal with the guilt later. Yeah. 

[00:09:25] Marvin: Yeah. 

[00:09:25] Michelle: But then as I've gotten older and I've gotten more comfortable with myself, the guilt really isn't there as much as it used to be. 

[00:09:34] Marvin: Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, I've had my own journey dealing with my guilt about the way that I'm wired. And I mean, there was a point when I was standing on a bridge.

And the Reason was because, on some level I was like, this is the way that I am, this is what I want and it's wrong.

I still think of it as like dark, but I don't now see the dark as I hate myself for it. 'Cause I made a decision. I mean, I [00:10:00] was like, okay, I'm either gonna kill myself or I'm gonna learn to love myself and accept this part of myself and embrace it.

And so that was a turning point for me, and I've been on that journey ever since of like, I'm just gonna choose this part of myself and love this part of myself. And, and I mean, doing this podcast is, it's part of that really for me because I know there's other people like me and I particularly love.

For a woman like yourself, because I think culturally, there's more shame on women about this kind of thing. Because really I mean, if a man cheats, people get mad at him , but there's also sort of this cultural acceptance that, oh, well he's a man.

Of course he's gonna cheat. Whereas with women, I feel like they just get crucified. Oh 

[00:10:41] Michelle: yeah. And it, I've even met someone go as far as to say that it is almost like it's contagious or something. Like I had a friend mess around on her husband and the husband knew my situation 'cause she went tell everything to him or whatever, and he knew my [00:11:00] lifestyles, whatever.

So. Instead of blaming his wife or blaming their relationship for the cheating, I got blamed because I allow it and I'm like, wait, hold up. Like how did I get, you know, like it's not contagious. I didn't give your wife adulterer. Come on now. Like I didn't, right. It's not contagious, but that's the stigma behind it, you know, like, 

[00:11:22] Marvin: yeah.

[00:11:22] Michelle: I think too is everybody wants to blame everybody else except taking accountability for their own actions too. 

[00:11:29] Marvin: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:11:30] Michelle: And that, that has a lot to do with it, but I, I never hide those kind of feelings, like to where I felt worthless for the way I am. I guess I just looked at it as either my partner's gonna accept me for who I am, or I'm gonna move on.

Basically, and that's kind of how I've been living my life. And I've actually found a partner who was accepting of it, finally. And so it's made it a lot easier. 

[00:11:56] Marvin: Yeah. 

[00:11:56] Michelle: A lot less spicier, but a lot easier, you know? Yeah. [00:12:00] But you know, when it comes to feelings and stuff like that 

[00:12:03] Marvin: there, oh, lemme ask 

[00:12:04] Michelle: you 

.

[00:12:04] Marvin: in the terms of taboo, because you were talking about you want the playing field level, the other person being married, they have as much to lose as you do, and there's less likelihood of anybody .

Developing feelings where you're attached and you're stalking and you're chasing and that kind of thing. 

But in the sense of things being taboo is there any part of you that finds the sex hotter if you're not getting emotionally tied with the person and developing feelings?

Because there's this view of sex that it's only right if you are emotionally connected with the person, and it's wrong if you just have sex with somebody and you're not, I don't know. Is that part of it for you at all? 

[00:12:40] Michelle: Sex is completely different when you have emotions and when you don't have emotions.

Think about if you've ever had a one night stand. How fucking hot a one night stand is, you know that in the morning you don't ever have to see this person again. You can do whatever the hell you want to do. You do not have to actually. Face [00:13:00] them. And a lot of times you're either drinking or something like that, so your inhibitions are lower, like you're not as worried about what you're doing, you know?

And so whenever you have feelings for somebody, when you're talking to them constantly, when you're having to express emotions, it's completely different because a part of you feels like they're gonna judge you because of those feelings. But if there's no feelings there, then there's no judgment there.

You know, it's just let it go.

I have, I think, I guess I have the mentality of a man because I can have sex without any feelings whatsoever. I can give a shit less about. Your feelings, I'm sorry. I am the type of person to where I have actually taken again home and had sex sobered up and be like, what the fuck am I doing?

Get outta my bed. You know? Like I am that person. I'm a person when I was single, you're not sleeping at my house. You can, well, you could come over, you can fuck, but you're leaving. You're not even sleeping in my bed. Go. Mm-hmm. Um, but that's just me. [00:14:00] Not everybody's like that, you know?

And I guess that I have a disconnect when it comes to feelings. About those things. And the only feelings that I'm chasing is that high on doing what I'm not supposed to be doing. And that's basically the only feelings that I'm feeling when it involves that. Mm, 

[00:14:17] Marvin: mm-hmm. 

[00:14:18] Michelle: You know, and I, I like it like that.

Yeah. 

[00:14:21] Marvin: Yeah. I love it. I I'm very much appreciative of you. Just being candid about it. So, , I guess that's obvious. An aspect of I'm not supposed to be doing this is this person that I'm sleeping with is married, or I'm married and that's something I'm not supposed to be doing from society's standpoint.

Are there any other aspects of the sexual experiences that you have that like. This also makes it wrong, and it'll make it hotter if it's that way. And if I can orchestrate the experience so that it has that element, I will try to do that. 

[00:14:56] Michelle: I don't know. Not sure. Um, I'm a, pretty [00:15:00] much, I'm the type of person that if I meet someone.

I automatically have that click, then I know I'm going to sleep with that person regardless of who they are. I can, I could have guys hit on me constantly, and I'm going to know for sure just by standing next to them, if I have that click with them. If I have that click, then I'm going for it. But if I don't, I'm like, I'm gonna push you to the side.

Like you just go. But there's. I like the taboo of knowing I'm not supposed to be doing it, knowing it's wrong, and probably doing it in places I'm not supposed to be doing it at. I don't so much as I've gotten older do that because now there's video cameras everywhere and. Shit, if we did if people knew half the shit we did when we were younger, we'd be all labeled as sex offenders too.

So like I don't want any kind, any kind of title or anything like that, you know? So I guess I've gotten more cautious with the age, I guess you could say. Mm-hmm. But [00:16:00] mm-hmm. I'm not big into like the BDSM stuff . Yeah. Like the most I've ever done is like tied up type thing. And I mean, I've actually.

Had a side tie me up with a tie that I bought, and then the next week he wore the tie out somewhere with his family. So that was kind of 

[00:16:20] Marvin: fun. Oh, oh, I could, yeah, I could totally see how that would be excited. Yeah, because you're like. You know, Yeah. And you're the only one that knows that.

And you're filthy. That is an example of exactly the name of the podcast. That is a filthy little secret. And that would make, yeah, yeah. 

[00:16:34] Michelle: Like I was tied up with that tie last week, and now you're posting a picture on social media with your family wearing that tie and bitch I gave you that tie.

Like, that's the funny part. You know, like I know where that tie's been. 

[00:16:48] Marvin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you said something about, you know, before there was cameras everywhere that there was excitement for you and having sex in places that, you [00:17:00] know, you weren't supposed to.

Are there places that are like high on your list of, oh, that would be such a hot place. To have sex or, or that you have actually had sex and that was like you look back on that memory and because of the place that made it super hot for you. 

[00:17:16] Michelle: Well, one of the places, so like I was, this was years ago, I was at a bar and next to the bar was a auto mechanic.

And um, they had a lot of cars there and stuff, and we went outside and I didn't have any intentions on fucking, but apparently it just happened. so again, this was before security cameras and all of that were a big thing. And there was actually a cop car. And so we fucked in the back of the cop car, just because we couldn't Oh 

[00:17:43] Marvin: wow.

[00:17:43] Michelle: The door was unlocked and we could, so Yeah, right. We did that. 

[00:17:47] Marvin: Yeah. 

[00:17:47] Michelle: So, 

[00:17:48] Marvin: you 

[00:17:48] Michelle: know, just those little things were fun. And I honestly couldn't even tell you the name of the guy 'cause I don't remember, I remember fucking in the cop car. I remember the bar name, but I don't remember the guy. You know, [00:18:00] that's how long it's been.

But that, that was a, you know. A thing that you couldn't get. Get away with doing that now. 

[00:18:06] Marvin: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:18:07] Michelle: But that was fun.

[00:18:08] Marvin: I gotcha. Yeah, no, well, I was just gonna say, uh, one of the books . That I wrote there was actually a story of a girl on the hood of a cop's car in the parking lot of a church.

It was like, 

[00:18:18] Michelle: I never, I never did it in a church. I've done it in can fields and bar parking lots and lots of bar parking lots, lots of our parking lots. Mm-hmm. Um, I used to like to do it outside a lot. Now you can't do it outside a lot. I mean, I've done it in, yeah. Boats fishing, like go out fishing and just decide, hey, let's fuck here, you know, and do that and you know.

[00:18:40] Marvin: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:40] Michelle: All those things you can't do anymore. You know, you can't get away with, without people video videoing you, you know? 

[00:18:47] Marvin: Right. Yeah. 

[00:18:47] Michelle: At work, you know, getting away with it, like doing it at work and different things like that and, you know, um. I showed up at somebody's work before they locked the door, and we just [00:19:00] right there on the countertop.

It was a little, it's different because it was their business, but it's in the middle of the day and anybody could tried to come in. Yeah. That's when it's fun. 

[00:19:07] Marvin: Yeah. Yeah. I guess , are you always using condoms or are you sometimes not using condoms and is there like any kind of thrill with that aspect of it

[00:19:15] Michelle: when I was younger, I used condoms a lot. As I've gotten older, my, side fucks are usually the same people. That, 'cause I know I can trust them. And, , I am very selective and it just depends, if it's a new guy, oh hell yeah, I'm using a condom. But um, 

[00:19:31] Marvin: yeah, sure. 

[00:19:31] Michelle: If it's somebody that I've been with a lot, then half the time I don't, I'm fixed and usually the men I'm with are fixed.

So it just depends. Yeah, 

[00:19:39] Marvin: gotcha. 

[00:19:40] Michelle: But I'm very selective of who I fuck. Again, like I said, I don't need anybody being obsessed and trying to break up my marriage and stuff like that. Right. So I'm very, very selective on who it is. 

[00:19:52] Marvin: If you could pick one story over the course of all of your adventure, is there anyone that stands out to you as, that was [00:20:00] the hottest thing I've ever done.

[00:20:02] Michelle: Probably out of character for me because I was always like a very shy person. I didn't like dress. Provocative or anything like that. And I actually drove at 2:00 AM in the morning, wearing nothing but a trench coat. 

[00:20:17] Marvin: Oh, okay. 

[00:20:17] Michelle: And showed up.

I showed up at someone's hotel room wearing nothing but a trench coat, and it was the first time I ever had sex with them and it was someone I knew from high school that I dated, but we had never had sex. And I showed up and. For me, like the whole time I think I was nervous. I'm like, oh my God, what if I get stopped by a cop?

What if I get in a car accident? 'cause I'm wearing a just a fucking coat. Like that was it. I was just wearing a trench coat. And I was like, what if I get stopped? I was wearing a trench coat and I was wearing kneehigh boots. I remember it. And um, I was like, what if I get stopped, blah, blah. And I was like, you know what?

Fuck it. And I just drove straight . It was like a 45 minute drive, you know, and um 

[00:20:59] Marvin: mm-hmm. 

[00:20:59] Michelle: And [00:21:00] I had sex with this person and it was probably like the best sex I ever had in my life. I remember it. It was. It was crazy. But the thing that sticks out the most, like I said, is because I showed up in just the Coke and I think that like took him by surprise as well.

But I was like, fuck it. It was 2:00 AM and it's, 

[00:21:19] Marvin: mm-hmm. 

[00:21:20] Michelle: It was what it was and that was very out of character for me. And I guess that just started the , president for everything else that followed after that. But that was very out of character for me and I just, I took the moment and kind of ran with it.

[00:21:34] Marvin: That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. I love that story. Okay, actually there's one more last question. Because you said something and I thought, oh, I wanna kind of unpack that. You said that when you were talking about fucking in the back of the cop car, you said, you know, we did it because we could.

Mm-hmm. If you were to try to explain, what is it when you're saying that of I did it because I can. I don't know. Is it possible to kind of unpack what you mean by that?

[00:21:58] Michelle: So to me [00:22:00] it's like, you know, there's that saying, just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to do it. 

[00:22:04] Marvin: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:05] Michelle: If it feels. To me, then I'm gonna do it because at the end of the day, I'm the only one that answers to myself, so fuck it. Yeah. You know? So if I can do something and I am drawn to do it, and I want to do it, then I'm going to do it to.

I am not a person who uses drugs. I'm not a person who drinks alcohol, but I'm a person who likes to fuck plain and simple. That's my addiction, I guess. Yeah. And that's what I enjoy. 

So if I can do something, then nine out of 10, if I'm drawn to it, I'm going to do it. And 

[00:22:38] Marvin: yeah, 

[00:22:39] Michelle: kind of, you know, how they, how they say, uh, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission.

So. 

[00:22:46] Marvin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:22:47] Michelle: If I was never told no, then it's easier to ask for forgiveness. 

[00:22:51] Marvin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for coming and telling these stories and letting people see a little bit of your [00:23:00] truth and pulling back the curtain and sharing some filthy little secrets and, you know, I feel like, I don't know, I, I think we should do this again. And, uh, but yeah. 

[00:23:10] Marvin: Thanks for listening to Filthy Little Secrets. I hope we left you feeling light free and inspired to explore your filthy sexual horizons. If you want more, subscribe to get all the filthy future fun. If you're a sex positive woman who'd like to burn another bra of shame, I want to talk to you. Wanna come on the show and tell your story?

Go to morgan hale books.com/podcast to learn more. That's M-O-R-G-A-N-H-A-L-E books.com/podcast. Until next time, this is Morgan Hale, encouraging you to keep it real and filthy.