SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Filthy Little Secrets, the show where real everyday women get real about sex. We're here to shatter stigma and trample taboo one candid conversation at a time. My name's Marvin, but my readers know me as Morgan Hale, filthy romance author. And I'm your host for this heart-to-heart chat about something most of us think about, dream about, and even yearn for. But few of us feel comfortable admitting it, talking about it, or celebrating it. So let's get filthy together. Hi,

Introduction and Purpose of the Episode

SPEAKER_03 0:28

everyone. Today is probably the edgiest conversation that I've tried to have on this podcast. And for me, it is stepping onto unholy, holy ground. I like that. And I imagine that there will be at least two groups of women who will come to this episode. One will be women that you know have cheated on a partner or have knowingly slept with someone who is in a relationship with someone else. And for you, I have lots of things to say that I believe I will be saying over the course of this is going to be a series of episodes. The one thing I will say, in 2020, I published my first book, and it was it became part of a series that was all about a woman who cheated on her husband. It was sort of a dark, erotic piece, fiction, and it was very authentic for me. And and so I I just found within myself that really what it was was a love story to women like you. And if you're here and you're listening, I'm I'm grateful for you. The other group

Acknowledging the Pain of Infidelity

SPEAKER_03 1:43

of women who I imagine are gonna find this episode are women who have uh experienced being cheated on. And as I thought about you, I I had a similar feeling to what what it is like for me to be in a conversation with someone who has experienced tremendous loss. I feel a reverence for the pain that you're experiencing, and it feels like the right thing for me to do is to say nothing, but just be quiet and be present to your pain, because I do believe that we're all in this together. And if you're listening right now to me trying to introduce the topic of eroticism of infidelity, for some reason we're supposed to be in this conversation together, and it is an intense amount of duality that I am coming at it, wanting to talk about the eroticism of it, and you are coming at it with an extraordinary amount of pain that I have not experienced, and I don't feel like I really have the authority to speak to you. So, I mean, for me it's it's to just acknowledge and tell you that I'm glad that you're here. And so I was always contemplating trying to have this conversation, and my heart was like, I need help because there's peace that I don't have, I don't have the words to say to you. And in my heart, I knew that there was exactly one person that I wanted to come have this conversation with me, and I was nervous to ask her because she means so much to me, and um and I waited for weeks to ask her because I was like, you know, what's she gonna think when I wanna talk about the eroticism of infidelity and and in preparing to have this conversation? I mean, one of the things that was very clear to me is that she didn't want this to be about her, so I'm not going to tell you how amazing she is, as much as it would be very easy for me to do that. She wants this to be about you, and so I want to honor that and just say

Introducing Kyera and Her Perspective

SPEAKER_03 3:50

that I get to introduce you to my friend Kyra if you don't know her. She's here to to bring the piece that I know I don't have, and I do know that she does. So, Kyra, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. So happy. I'm so glad you asked. So glad you listened to your intuition and you asked.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

So, um what did Mikey want to say yes to having this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Well, I think you you said something that was really powerful, and it was just the acknowledgement of feeling as though you didn't have the authority to speak to this. And as

Kyera's Journey Through Infidelity

SPEAKER_01 4:25

soon as you asked me, I got so excited because I fully believe that I do from my own personal experience, not just of having been married and then catching my husband having an affair, but healing from that. I it's one thing to be able to connect with somebody because you've experienced infidelity. And it's another to not only have healed from it, but to not be triggered by the topic, by the conversation. I have no judgment for women that are doing that, that find eroticism from the act. So I felt from that space, from a neutral space, from a space of love from a higher perspective, who better? Who better, right? Because most people can talk about it, but they're emotionally charged. And so that doesn't actually do there, there's no service to the group of women that you mentioned where it's like, I do this, I like it. So here we are.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Thank you. Thank you for saying so uh I mean, in that group of women who have experienced the betrayal, I mean, there's there's one woman who this is really fresh for her. She's she's just found out she's in shock. So for her, still inside the shock and the heartbreak of it, what would you say to her?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I I I remember my own shock and it devastation. It didn't, and it is that it's a devastation. It feels, I think there's a lot of words that every woman who has experienced infidelity would probably go to. And I think feeling devastated, feeling gutted, feeling like you're in total shock, all of that comes up. And you gotta feel that there's no way to the other side without feeling what there is to feel.

Kyera on Healing and Moving Forward

SPEAKER_01 6:10

But I also believe there's a piece missing, and it's the part where we actually get to heal beyond what was. And so, what I would say to your friend or any woman who is experiencing that right now, and they feel like their whole world has been blown up. I mean, it has. What once was will never be again. Now, that doesn't mean you can't repair something should you choose to, but what inherently was will never be again. And there's a great deal of loss that men and women go through when they discover this. And so there's the obvious, which is that. And then there's something else. What I have experienced for myself, but also the countless women that I worked with when I was working with women who were going through divorce and infidelity was there's something on the other side. And the something on the other side is not only a greater experience of life, it's one that has to be created. It doesn't just magically happen, but a profound understanding as to why this has happened. Why, so I believe that we have soul contracts. And when we're experiencing something like infidelity and we feel gutted and we feel betrayed, that's another big word. It's hard to, it's hard to find the gift in that. Like that saying that there's a gift from infidelity is not something that most people would would use in in their language, but I have found that there is. And so what I would say to the person going through that is if you can find some comfort in knowing that there is a life that is beyond your wildest dreams, beyond this experience, and you can not only hold on to that hope, but reach for it, you will be the what I would say uh far and few between with the percentage of people that not only overcome the experience, but alchemize it.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

You talk about the concept of alchemy, because um, I mean, I imagine I'll have some listeners who maybe aren't familiar with that idea.

Alchemy, Turning Shit to Gold

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah, alchemy. I'll I'll simplify this real fast. It's like turning shit into gold. It's like, can you take a mess and turn it into something extraordinary? Can you rebuild from the ashes? Alchemy is the ability to transform something, right? The alchemist. And that's quite simply what it is. You're in a shitty situation, it hurts, it sucks. You want anything else to be happening other than that. You want to be able to wake up and just be like, oh fuck, okay, that was a bad dream. It's not. And so, how can you transform that into something really extraordinary? And again, I completely understand this is not for the for anyone listening right now and you're in the thick of it, you're probably like, Kyra, you can go fuck yourself. I get it. I've been there. I've been there, so I get it. But it's turning this mess into something beyond that.

Trust and Opening Up Again

SPEAKER_03 9:00

So um I imagine there's gonna be women who, you know, they experienced infidelity and it's not fresh, but it is still this is still very triggering. And they are still in a place of, I don't know if I'll ever be able to trust again. This happened to me years ago, however long ago it was, but just the idea that some asshole is coming on either not trying to have a conversation about the eroticism of it puts them right back in that, you know, moment of discovering the betrayal. But I would imagine maybe they don't want to stay there. Um, what would you say to her? I mean, if she's listening right now and she's like, I want to strangle Marvin Kyra, this is a can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Um, you know, this was one of the issues that I had, Marvin, with so many Facebook groups that were centered around women navigating divorce. It was like, my God, years later and sometimes 30 years, 40 years, I'm reading these posts from women that are still holding their ex-husband hostage to a moment in time. And listen, are they justified? Are they valid in all of their feelings? Absolutely. And is that changing your life? Is it making things better to be justified in your hurt? No, because you're still feeling it. How how many years have to go by before you have felt it enough? And so for the woman that's like, I want to, I want to heal and I want to overcome and I don't know how, it's like, first of all, the willingness has to be there. There are some women that are like, I really don't want to heal. Perfect. That's okay. That gets to be like your path, and there's nothing wrong with that. But for the the person that has the desire to be liberated from the experience, right? When I say healed, I'm I'm speaking to the fact that you could speak to it, talk about it, think about it, and there's no emotional charge. It's no longer bringing anything negative up for you. So how do we liberate ourselves from that? Number one, the willingness has to be there. And then number two, there has to be a future that we're creating, consciously creating, that we're stepping into. And I remember when I navigated infidelity, and then I wanted to get, you know, we went through a divorce and I wanted to get back in the dating scene. It was that very conversation of can I open my heart again? Can I trust? If you've ever had a dog or a cat or a pet that you loved, you know that when you lose that pet, it is, it is gut-wrenching. It is horrific. It is painful. And guess what? What do most of us do? We go back and get another one, knowing that we're going to face this again someday. Now you can get into another relationship and it doesn't have to say that you'll face it, but the potential is there. And so it's not even a matter of avoiding hurt. It's not that. It's like, how many times can you open your heart after you've closed it down because something happened? And I've personally got to the point where I was unwilling to be a woman that didn't trust simply because one person or whoever from my past behaved the way that they did. I believe that for me to experience my power and my sense of safety, independent of what people do or don't do, I had to go through that. It's really easy to feel safe when everything's going great, but how can you cultivate that when it's not? And I think that these are some of the bigger questions to start asking ourselves.

"The Eroticism of Infidelity" ?!

SPEAKER_03 12:18

So for the woman who hears the phrase eroticism of infidelity and is like Marvin, what the fuck? And maybe is like Kyra, what the fuck? Why are you even willing to have a conversation with him about this? Like what would you want to say to her before she like rage quits the episode? What would you want her to understand? Like, what reason would she have possibly ever to listen one more second to this conversation?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

This is about women and men being free. It's if all it takes is for me to talk about or you to talk about the eroticism of infidelity, for you to become angry, hurt, judgmental, pissed off. If that is all it takes to get you out of your power, like fuck, we got some work to do. And I just really truly believe that we cannot grow without the initiations, without the tests, without opportunities to demonstrate our power, our love. I believe that we're all here to return to love. How do we do that without the flip side? I think the flip side is so important. And when you can be around people, like listen, when I caught my ex-husband having an affair, I was so gutted, so devastated. I thought my life was over. I was suicidal. I didn't want to live. And I was 28 years old. It's going to be 10 years, February, February 2026 will be 10 years that I went through that. And there was a moment when I considered taking my life. And now it's one of the greatest things that ever happened to me. I could look at him, I could look at the woman that he had an affair with. And I just have nothing but love for them because I understand that they played a role. And for the people that are doing that or they want to do that, it's like everyone's here to learn. We're student, teacher, teacher, student. I'm not going to judge somebody's path. And by the way, if I do that, that's taking me out of my experience of love. I just don't have an interest in doing that. And I'm not sitting here on my high horse. I've done a lot of shit, done a lot of things. And there was a time where I really had great judgment and anger for women that were sleeping with married men and almost bragging about it. Or it's kind of like, um, you know, there's a thing. We know that there are women. And when I say we, like, so I think it's like a thing amongst women where you know there are other women that actively seek out married men. There's something about it. It turns them on. I believe I know exactly what it is, but it's a very real thing. And I think that used to threaten me. It used to really scare me after I went through my divorce and that whole experience. And now, like it, I have no fear around that. I have no judgment. I have no fear. I have just nothing but love for people with their choices. It's just, you just get to a certain place in your life where you're so liberated that you don't want to feel anything other than that. And the moment I start judging somebody, I lose it. And I just don't have an interest in losing that. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect. I've got other things, but you know, I think that's the main part for me is maintaining that.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, when I say, you know, stepping onto holy and holy ground, I mean, the trust fall for me and wanting to have this conversation and be like, there's an eroticism for me and the idea that there are women like you're describing, and I can write novels about it. And that but a belief that somehow in this incredible duality between that and the enormous amount of pain that it causes, somehow past all of that is love. And I say that it's it for me, it's like I'm stepping out into this, and it's very much the unknown to to open this can of worms and try to have this conversation, but it is like a trust that's there, and that it's there for everyone that wants to come to this conversation for whatever reason they want to come to it. And so I just love hearing you say that because I mean that's I think my belief too is that's the other side.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

It is the other side, and I think something that would be really helpful for women to hear who are currently navigating that, I've experienced a lot of women don't know who they are, independent of their husband or their partner or their children or whatever their title is. And that was the case for me. And so when I caught him having an affair, and by the way, like he left me for her. It's not like I could even try to repair it. He's like, I'm out. I by myself, I never felt so alone and so scared. And I realized this was an opportunity to discover who I was, independent of him and the title of wife and all of those roles and labels. And there's no way that I would have discovered that had we stayed married, or that never would have happened. Like I can look back on that and see how small my life was. And it broke me open in the most extraordinary way because I was open for that. I was open for the healing that was on the other side of it after my like toxic era of, you know, wanting to get back at him and doing what I was doing, we can talk about that. But and so there's there is a gift, even if the woman at this moment can't find that. There's something here that I believe is in support of uh everyone's becoming.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

I know there's a lot of resources on the internet for women that are, but if you were to say, if your friend has just been betrayed and they're navigating this, like what do you are there like resources that you think this is this will actually help you in an empowered path to I don't even know. This is kind of an out of left field question.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

This isn't no, I know what you're asking. This is uh listen, this might come off the wrong way, but it's just my honest answer. Listen, I spent months after that happened researching, looking. I was looking for who could help me, and I couldn't find anyone. And eventually had to rely on the training that I've had, the tools that I knew, and I feel like I've just spent the last 38 years of my life actually defining my purpose beyond everything that you've experienced for me and everything that I've done. And you know, with my book or whatever, I have those principles, but I have a methodology for transformation. And I think whether it's that or it's like I don't have an answer for that. I know I have a methodology, but I don't know. And I'm sure that there are. But I also think what's really important, and this is what was hard for me, there are also a lot of divorce groups that are on the forefront. They look like they're for support. But what I actually found was that they were in support of just like recycling the story and not actually being free from it and then alchemizing it into something extraordinary. And I think that is what is missing in our society. And so I got in, listen, you are bringing up a very heated and a very loaded topic because even when I was standing for we can heal and overcome in a very short amount of time, the amount of women that were pissed off with me, specifically around infidelity, it would actually was mind blowing for me. It was like, wow, like, and I get it, it's a painful thing. But if we don't have somebody that can highlight a path of healing and not healing that takes like 10 years with your therapist where you go every week and dig up the same shit, that's not it. It's something else. And I think the word, Marvin, that everybody can find within themselves that's completely free is courage. Do you have the courage to face all of this? And do you have the courage to maybe consider that some part of your soul asked for this experience for a greater purpose beyond what the human mind right now is navigating?

SPEAKER_03 20:06

You know, when I when I first published that book, one of my most communicative readers in an email was a woman who had been cheated on. And she didn't come at me with, you ask her, Why would you write a book like this? She came at me with just just like an engaged reader who wanted to talk. And I was so surprised by it when she told me that, you know, her reason for reading the book was she she was doing it as like a temperature check on herself to see if she could read a book like that and not, as you said, feel a charge. And I had never even contemplated that anyone would come at it that way. It surprised me. And but I've thought about her many times and we've stayed in touch over the years because to me it was just really badass of her to come at that. You know, and and so and I don't know that I, you know, necessarily see in myself that kind of fortitude, really, but but but uh in her, I just was like, that's so you're yeah.

To The Woman Who Has Cheated

SPEAKER_03 21:18

So so for the woman who who has cheated or has slept with someone who was in a committed relationship, they knew it and they intentionally did it, or they are you know actively doing that now, they enjoy it, they get aroused by it. I mean, I I for every person who's listening to this who who has been betrayed on the other side of that, there's a woman who may have known exactly what she was doing. And so I you know, I I mean, even as we were preparing for to have this conversation, I got emotional because I feel those women and I and I Just, you know, my desire for this whole podcast is is to is for there to be a safe space for women in their sexual expression, whatever it looks like, right, wrong, like that in this container, my hope is that's just not the conversation, right? So I know the things that I hope to create for those women who are listening right now and I'm sure have experienced in their life. If anyone found out what they were doing, judgment. But do you have anything that you want to say to that woman who's listening right now, who is or has engaged in?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

After I caught my husband having an affair, I was devastated. And on the other side of that devastation was rage. And I remember feeling so insignificant, so much so that I just wanted to feel significant again. And if a man is married and he's willing to cheat on his wife, you must be you must be a big deal in some way, shape, or form. Like you must be significant enough for him to be willing to break his vows. And so, you know, this might be a conversation that that brings up a lot of feelings or judgments. I've I've had people that when I've spoken to this before, have unfollowed me, even though it's my past and like that's okay. I want to go there because I don't have any shame around this. And I think that that's really important to address because there are a lot of women that have done this or they're still doing it, but they're feeling shame. And I have no shame for my past. I was so mad at my ex-husband that I was like, I wanted to hurt him. I wanted to hurt him. I wanted to like get him back. And I wanted to feel significant. And I thought, well, what better way to do that than to sleep with his friends? And so I and I I didn't care. I didn't care that they were married. I, it's kind of like an addict that you don't give a shit about anyone else. You just care about yourself, getting your fix, feeling better. And that was the headspace that I was in. So I slept with his boss, who was married, and then I slept with his boss's brother, who was married, and then I slept with his coworker who was married. And it's not that it made me feel better. It wasn't like I was, listen, I was totally faking orgasms with them. It was not like it was like, it wasn't mind-blowing sex. It was helping my ego to somehow cope with what had happened to me. And I will also say it, I'm just gonna say it because there's nigh there's no other way to say it than to say it. Like it was fun. I'm not gonna lie, like I was having fun until I wasn't. I was having fun until I wasn't. And I think, you know, there was this part of me I'll never forget when one of the men was like, okay, they were two brothers, okay. The boss's brother. And one of them was like, You're not sleeping with my brother, are you? And I was like, What? No. And then the other one was like, You're not sleeping with my brother, are you? And I was like, What? No. So it was interesting because they both asked me that, but I remember being like, fuck you, you're married. Like, I don't have to be honest with you about that. That's not even your right to know that. But it had me feel temporarily better and it it made me feel significant. Like, if you're feeling insignificant, what better way to try to find that than through someone who's married that is willing to betray every vow, every whatever, than to do that. And I know that this is probably really, I'm sure there's some people right now that don't like me. And I get it. And then when I got to the point where it was no longer fun, it was not making me feel better, it was actually starting to make me feel worse. I stopped. And I think, you know, I was thinking about this when you asked me to come on this podcast. I was like, is there a reason beyond significance that people would do it? And I thought, well, maybe they're bored. And I thought, it can't, it can't just be that you're bored, and it can't just be that it's a kink, because I don't really believe that we would do something that we know is causing so much harm to somebody else unless there was a massive personal gain or void that we felt it was filling. And for most people, it's not to say everybody, but for most people, it is some form of significance.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

Yeah, I I know for me, if there are any women listening to this who are currently have who want to have this conversation with me and unpack what it is for you. I mean, that is the conversation that I'm so interested to have. And I mean, I I I love that really about the podcast in general, that like whatever it is that we're talking about, whatever authentic expression of a woman's sexuality that they come and they just tell the story about what it is for them and why they did what they did and and what was great about it and what wasn't great about it, because I know I sure don't know. For me, this is like just a learning experience to listen to women unpack that. And so for the you know, with infidelity, I'm particularly interested in hearing women tell me those stories. And there are you know, two women who who have shared quite a bit with me, and I have recorded interviews that are gonna be part of this series, and there are other women who have also shared quite a bit with me, but they're like, I am not putting that on the internet, but I'm grateful for all of it. So yeah, I mean, I um there's a lot to unpack.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

I think there's a lot to unpack with yeah with this conversation for so many people, and I think I just want to say something else too. I think there's a an experience that a lot of women have, especially if being cheated on, or if whatever, whether boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife. Do you know the song Like a Boy by Sierra? You should, if you don't, you should go listen to it after this and just look at the lyrics. Yeah, it was basically like the way guys behave. She wanted to experience that. And I remember that was kind of the era that I was also in. It was like, okay, but men can do this, what I can't. And I think that's where it was like, I was just getting this like, I would call it like a false sense of power because ultimately, you know, integrity matters to me. And I was completely out of it. I just like I said, I did not, I just didn't care. I didn't care about their wives at home. I didn't care about anyone except for myself and my own pain. And I think there's a level of consciousness to the things that we do, and that's not to say it's good or bad. It's just different, just a different level. And so um I'm really grateful for your courage to bring this forward because I know that it is such a sensitive topic for so many people. But I think even just talking about it, and especially for women that have done it and they're they feel shame, like you don't have to feel shame around your past and you don't have to feel shame about your present either. I think it's really important to ask yourself is what I'm doing serving my ultimate goal? What is your ultimate goal? My ultimate goal in that moment was to feel better, to feel significant, and I did not care at what cost. And the moment that it was no longer serving me, I just stopped and it just became that simple. And I was like, okay, did that, tried it, it was fun. And then there are times where even like if to this day, if I'm in a relationship, like I still have at times urges, like, and I think that's just the animal self in us, and I don't know that that goes away. I don't know that that goes away. I don't and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think people would be lying if they said that they don't have maybe thoughts of other people or what would that be like, you know. I and I just don't think there's anything wrong with our human experience.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Well, I feel complete. I don't know, yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. There's a lot and uh for for all of you listening, for whatever reason that you're listening, thank you for being present to this conversation, and I just hope you get what you need to get out of this, and that you find whatever it is that your heart desires and deserves. And we're gonna keep talking about it. I'm gonna keep talking about it because this is a conversation I'm very interested in, so that's forthcoming. In the next episode, we'll meet Veronica.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

He messaged me and was like, Hey, do you want to come to my house before you go to work? And I said, Wait, what do you mean? Because isn't your fiance home?

SPEAKER_03 30:32

And after Veronica, we'll meet Michelle.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

And it was it was fun, and that was like probably my first affair that I ever had.

Marvin aka Morgan Hale 30:40

In this series on the eroticism of infidelity. Thanks for listening to Filthy Little Secrets. I hope we left you feeling light, free, and inspired to explore your filthy sexual horizons. If you want more, subscribe to call the filthy feature fun. If you're a sex positive woman and like to burn another broad chain, I want to talk to you. Wanna come on the show and tell your story? Go to Morganhale Books.com slash podcast to learn more. That's M O R T A N H A L E Books.com slash podcast. Until next time, it's Morgan Hale encouraging you to keep it real and filthy.